# High latency cellular backhaul suspected to cause TOO\_EARLY downlink transmission errors **URL:** \ **Category:** RAK Gateways\ **Created:** [October 3, 2022, 8:35am UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138 "2022-10-03T08:35:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jeff-UK](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/jeff-uk/32/35697_2.png) [@Jeff-UK](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/Jeff-UK)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 11:34am UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/21 "2022-10-03T11:34:50Z")
Notice from your picture that you are using confirmed uplinks - these are really to be avoided if possible - even on a private instance šŸ˜‰ Despite the reasonable RSSI for the one that gets through I note use of SF12 - again to be avoided/moved from under ADR if possibleā€¦also join at bottom at SF12? What are nodes? What firmware/how configured? For the recieved uplink FCount =? How all nodes configured =OTAA or ABP - from the Join assume that one is OTAAā€¦ is the one with Dev ADDR 26086757 one of yours or a ā€˜foreignā€™ device? (Are you seeing that device in your Application/Device Console?) Actually jus notice its 2 picsā€¦ šŸ¤” Clearly a decoder problem also? ---
**Author:** ![Johan\_Scheepers](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/johan_scheepers/32/46550_2.png) [@Johan\_Scheepers](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/Johan_Scheepers)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 11:37am UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/22 "2022-10-03T11:37:55Z")
Stick the SIM card to a cellular router and test with a PC ---
**Author:** ![LasseRegin](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/lasseregin/32/35697_2.png) [@LasseRegin](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/LasseRegin)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 11:43am UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/23 "2022-10-03T11:43:42Z")
> [@Jeff-UK](#): > > confirmed uplinks - these are really to be avoided if possible - even on a private instance Wasnā€™t aware of this. Thanks for pointing out! šŸ™‚ > [@Jeff-UK](#): > > Despite the reasonable RSSI for the one that gets through I note use of SF12 - again to be avoided/moved from under ADR if possible The nodes are our own with custom firmware, where weā€™ve implemented ADR so the SF is increased as long as the node fails sending uplinks, hence it should decrease to SF7 when uplinks flow successfully again šŸ™‚ > [@Jeff-UK](#): > > How all nodes configured =OTAA or ABP - from the Join assume that one is OTAA All are configured for OTAA. > [@Jeff-UK](#): > > is the one with Dev ADDR 26086757 one of yours or a ā€˜foreignā€™ device? They are all ours. They are listed in Application. > [@Jeff-UK](#): > > Clearly a decoder problem also? Thatā€™s correct. We have problems with the JS decoder in TTN, so we are manually decoding the packets in our Cloud Solution šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![LasseRegin](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/lasseregin/32/35697_2.png) [@LasseRegin](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/LasseRegin)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 11:44am UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/24 "2022-10-03T11:44:06Z")
> [@Johan\_Scheepers](#): > > Stick the SIM card to a cellular router and test with a PC Thank you for the suggestion, however itā€™s not possible for us at the moment since we are remote debugging this. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff-UK](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/jeff-uk/32/35697_2.png) [@Jeff-UK](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/Jeff-UK)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 11:47am UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/25 "2022-10-03T11:47:08Z")
> [@LasseRegin](#): > > The nodes are our own with custom firmware, where weā€™ve implemented ADR so the SF is increased as long as the node fails sending uplinks, hence it should decrease to SF7 when uplinks flow successfully again šŸ™‚ If they are 5-50m away with reasonable (say \<50 ā†’ \<115) RSSI then you should see joins OK at SF7/8/9ā€¦ SF12 suggests you have configuration/behavioural problems with these nodes! ---
**Author:** ![Johan\_Scheepers](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/johan_scheepers/32/46550_2.png) [@Johan\_Scheepers](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/Johan_Scheepers)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 11:49am UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/26 "2022-10-03T11:49:49Z")
> [@LasseRegin](#): > > remote Where in the world is the gateway? And unfortunately you canā€™t fix all problems remotely. ā˜¹ ---
**Author:** ![LasseRegin](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/lasseregin/32/35697_2.png) [@LasseRegin](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/LasseRegin)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 12:45pm UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/27 "2022-10-03T12:45:00Z")
> [@Jeff-UK](#): > > Potentially yes in that basic SMTC PF is UDP based with no QoS/certainty of delivery - packets are just thrown out on a wing & a prayer and whilst most will get thereā€¦!, where BasicStation is more secure and being TCP/IP based will have opportunity for replay/redelivery/easier network snooping/diagnostics etc. Switching to Basics Station mode seems to have fixed the problem. Thank you all very much for your help! šŸ™ ---
**Author:** ![descartes](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/descartes/32/47220_2.png) [@descartes](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/descartes)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 12:46pm UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/28 "2022-10-03T12:46:06Z")
> [@kersing](#): > > There are no such things as attempted uplinks. Either an uplink arrives at the gateway or it doesnā€™t. If it does and the CRC is correct it will be forwarded to the back-end. As the status messages arrive, the uplinks should arrive as well. Pretty much everything after this wisdom looks like advanced guessing or suggestions that need time to be answered before more suggestions are made - Iā€™d highly recommend slowing down responses because if a change is made that loses remote access to the gateway, someone has to go on a fly-drive holiday. As per protocol, we know the OP has mastered the art of the drip feed information - @LasseRegin, please be more expansive with answers - ten minutes giving us everything will probably save the volunteers subbing for your ā‚¬200 saving on a support contract a whole heap of time. Also, most of everything typed in response is essential detail - ping utilities were provided, you dove straight to the command line. Iā€™m not sure why Johan wants you to move an EU installation to half way round the planet either šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø Hereā€™s what we seem to know: - The gateway is sending Acks with some variability in timing & consistency. - Some of the uplinks arrive on the console. - The ADR mechanism has been altered. - Devices that are on top of the gateway (all of them at 5-50m) are SHOUTING which wonā€™t help. - We have yet to know how many devices there are. - And how many are heard by the gateway. The refinement of the devices can come after resolving why the basics of uplinks not being relayed is solved. ---
**Author:** ![descartes](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/descartes/32/47220_2.png) [@descartes](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/descartes)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 12:48pm UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/29 "2022-10-03T12:48:05Z")
> [@LasseRegin](#): > > Switching to Basics Station mode seems to have fixed the problem. Being a community, we share solutions here - what detailed differences did you see on the gateway log, the gateway console and the app/device console that lead you to believe this is resolved? ---
**Author:** ![Jeff-UK](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/jeff-uk/32/35697_2.png) [@Jeff-UK](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/Jeff-UK)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 1:24pm UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/30 "2022-10-03T13:24:00Z")
Has it also solved the SF12 join problem or is that still showing (and needs fixing) - if so likely your device firmware needs refinement. @descartes at -78/79 RSSI atleast one device is in the sweatspot for placement/signal strength ā€¦ allowing for coding gain likely equivalent to say -85-95 at lower SFā€™sā€¦ though even with ā€˜thin wood wallsā€™ inbetween would be concered at 5m seperation if antā€™s planar aligned! šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Johan\_Scheepers](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/johan_scheepers/32/46550_2.png) [@Johan\_Scheepers](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/Johan_Scheepers)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 2:20pm UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/31 "2022-10-03T14:20:59Z")
> [@descartes](#): > > EU installation to half way round the planet eithe The latency for me to ```auto Ireland eu-west-1 635 ms Sydney ap-southeast-2 560 ms N. California us-west-1 647 ms ``` I have a EU installation. Please suggest the cluster I should use? It all depends where you are siting in the world, some times latency is not that related to distance. ---
**Author:** ![descartes](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/descartes/32/47220_2.png) [@descartes](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/descartes)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 4:10pm UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/32 "2022-10-03T16:10:08Z")
> [@Johan\_Scheepers](#): > > It all depends where you are siting in the world, some times latency is not that related to distance. The OP said it was an installation in the EU ā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![LasseRegin](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/lasseregin/32/35697_2.png) [@LasseRegin](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/LasseRegin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2022, 7:19am UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/33 "2022-10-04T07:19:14Z")
First of all the end device uplinks were being successfully received immediately after the change ![Screenshot 2022-10-04 at 09.11.31](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/uploads/default/original/3X/8/e/8e0564b491f768feb8c686071e7934eae36c1b3f.png) In the gateway log the `lora_pkt_fwd` log was obviously replaced with a `basicstation` log. Without fully understanding each log statement it definitely didnā€™t print similar warnings like before related to ā€œout of sync ACK packetā€ which I assume is due to the Basics Station mode working very differently from the Packet Forwarder mode. Hereā€™s the latest snippet from the Gateway log. ```auto Tue Oct 4 07:11:08 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [S2E:INFO] Beaconing suspended for 10s - insufficient GPS data: time Tue Oct 4 07:11:08 2022 user.debug basicstation[20050]: [SYN:VERB] Time sync rejected: quality=3055 threshold=159 Tue Oct 4 07:11:18 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [S2E:INFO] Beaconing suspended for 10s - insufficient GPS data: time Tue Oct 4 07:11:19 2022 kern.info quectel-CM[2363]: requestRegistrationState2 MCC: 288, MNC: 1, PS: Attached, DataCap: UMTS Tue Oct 4 07:11:19 2022 user.info mwan3track: Lost 3 ping(s) on interface wwan (wwan0) Tue Oct 4 07:11:22 2022 kern.info quectel-CM[2363]: requestRegistrationState2 MCC: 288, MNC: 1, PS: Attached, DataCap: UMTS Tue Oct 4 07:11:25 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [SYN:INFO] MCU/SX130X drift stats: min: +0.5ppm q50: -2.4ppm q80: -6.2ppm max: +7.1ppm - threshold q90: +6.2ppm Tue Oct 4 07:11:25 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [SYN:INFO] Mean MCU drift vs SX130X#0: 1.3ppm Tue Oct 4 07:11:27 2022 user.debug basicstation[20050]: [SYN:VERB] Time sync rejected: quality=160 threshold=159 Tue Oct 4 07:11:28 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [S2E:INFO] Beaconing suspended for 10s - insufficient GPS data: time Tue Oct 4 07:11:36 2022 kern.info quectel-CM[2363]: requestRegistrationState2 MCC: 288, MNC: 1, PS: Attached, DataCap: UMTS Tue Oct 4 07:11:36 2022 user.info mwan3track: Lost 3 ping(s) on interface wwan (wwan0) Tue Oct 4 07:11:38 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [S2E:INFO] Beaconing suspended for 10s - insufficient GPS data: time Tue Oct 4 07:11:39 2022 kern.info quectel-CM[2363]: requestRegistrationState2 MCC: 288, MNC: 1, PS: Attached, DataCap: UMTS Tue Oct 4 07:11:43 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [SYN:INFO] Time sync qualities: min=87 q90=160 max=3055 (previous q90=159) Tue Oct 4 07:11:46 2022 user.debug basicstation[20050]: [SYS:VERB] Sys state 101 Tue Oct 4 07:11:46 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [RAL:INFO] RX mod=LORA f=867700000 bw=4214640 sz=42 dr=8 80A82508268004000111E3785DC63F694953DFD36E3C213ED5630CB4AA473CB1F0C1D3EDE2D8B82AE3D3 Tue Oct 4 07:11:48 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [S2E:INFO] Beaconing suspended for 10s - insufficient GPS data: time Tue Oct 4 07:11:52 2022 kern.info quectel-CM[2363]: requestRegistrationState2 MCC: 288, MNC: 1, PS: Attached, DataCap: UMTS Tue Oct 4 07:11:53 2022 user.info mwan3track: Lost 3 ping(s) on interface wwan (wwan0) Tue Oct 4 07:11:53 2022 user.debug basicstation[20050]: [S2E:VERB] ::1 diid=18297 [ant#0] - class A has no more alternate TX time Tue Oct 4 07:11:56 2022 kern.info quectel-CM[2363]: requestRegistrationState2 MCC: 288, MNC: 1, PS: Attached, DataCap: UMTS Tue Oct 4 07:11:58 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [S2E:INFO] Beaconing suspended for 10s - insufficient GPS data: time Tue Oct 4 07:12:02 2022 user.debug basicstation[20050]: [SYS:VERB] Sys state 101 Tue Oct 4 07:12:02 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [RAL:INFO] RX mod=LORA f=867700000 bw=4214640 sz=42 dr=8 80A82508268004000111E3785DC63F694953DFD36E3C213ED5630CB4AA473CB1F0C1D3EDE2D8B82AE3D3 Tue Oct 4 07:12:04 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [SYN:INFO] MCU/SX130X drift stats: min: -0.2ppm q50: -3.8ppm q80: +7.1ppm max: +9.5ppm - threshold q90: +8.9ppm Tue Oct 4 07:12:04 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [SYN:INFO] Mean MCU drift vs SX130X#0: 2.5ppm Tue Oct 4 07:12:08 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [S2E:INFO] Beaconing suspended for 10s - insufficient GPS data: time Tue Oct 4 07:12:10 2022 kern.info quectel-CM[2363]: requestRegistrationState2 MCC: 288, MNC: 1, PS: Attached, DataCap: UMTS Tue Oct 4 07:12:10 2022 authpriv.info dropbear[12592]: Child connection from 10.8.0.56:52355 Tue Oct 4 07:12:10 2022 user.info mwan3track: Lost 3 ping(s) on interface wwan (wwan0) Tue Oct 4 07:12:16 2022 kern.info quectel-CM[2363]: requestRegistrationState2 MCC: 288, MNC: 1, PS: Attached, DataCap: UMTS Tue Oct 4 07:12:17 2022 user.debug basicstation[20050]: [SYS:VERB] Sys state 101 Tue Oct 4 07:12:17 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [RAL:INFO] RX mod=LORA f=867300000 bw=4214640 sz=42 dr=8 80A82508268004000111E3785DC63F694953DFD36E3C213ED5630CB4AA473CB1F0C1D3EDE2D8B82AE3D3 Tue Oct 4 07:12:18 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [S2E:INFO] Beaconing suspended for 10s - insufficient GPS data: time Tue Oct 4 07:12:28 2022 user.info basicstation[20050]: [S2E:INFO] Beaconing suspended for 10s - insufficient GPS data: time Tue Oct 4 07:12:29 2022 kern.info quectel-CM[2363]: requestRegistrationState2 MCC: 288, MNC: 1, PS: Attached, DataCap: UMT ``` Please let me know if I am missing additional information. And once again thank you all for helping out, itā€™s very much appreciated! ---
**Author:** ![descartes](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/descartes/32/47220_2.png) [@descartes](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/descartes)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2022, 7:52am UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/34 "2022-10-04T07:52:44Z")
> [@LasseRegin](#): > > which I assume is due to the Basics Station mode working very differently from the Packet Forwarder mode. Not so much a ā€œmodeā€ as like the difference between BSD & Linux - both do the same job but in different ways. You may want to consider learning what those differences are if your business relies on the use of gateways as part of its product offering as there is more than one way a LoRaWAN installation can bite back. ---
**Author:** ![descartes](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/descartes/32/47220_2.png) [@descartes](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/descartes)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2022, 6:07pm UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/35 "2022-10-04T18:07:30Z")
High latency cellular backhaul is unrelated to TOO\_EARLY downlink. Octoberā€™s advanced guessing competition is now closed. We all got the prize. ---
**Author:** ![LasseRegin](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/lasseregin/32/35697_2.png) [@LasseRegin](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/LasseRegin)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2022, 5:53am UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/36 "2022-10-05T05:53:11Z")
> [@descartes](#): > > High latency cellular backhaul is unrelated to TOO\_EARLY downlink. Why is it unrelated? Most threads on this forum Iā€™ve read related to TOO\_EARLY mention high latency backhaul as a probable cause, and the only thing changed from the setting of testing (where everything was fine) to the setting on-site is that the cellular connection is worse. ---
**Author:** ![descartes](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/user_avatar/www.thethingsnetwork.org/descartes/32/47220_2.png) [@descartes](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/descartes)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2022, 10:38am UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/37 "2022-10-05T10:38:47Z")
Because if a downlink arrives late, it canā€™t generate a too early error, only a too late error. See the other post. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/uploads/default/original/3X/6/2/6250ea44fd2b0d6259489e1a92748df681e1f970.png) [@system](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 10:39am UTC](https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/high-latency-cellular-backhaul-suspected-to-cause-too-early-downlink-transmission-errors/59138/38 "2022-10-06T10:39:39Z")
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