What is the status of the TTN Gateway?


(Jose Marcelino) #217

Please tell me the BLE module is included and not just a footprint as this Farnell photo suggests?

https://mobile.twitter.com/FarnellNews/status/938810191994347520/photo/1


#218

Don’t worry, there is a module mounted.


#219

Please email info@thethingsproducts.com


#220

Not supported by the software though


#221

I had some questions with regards to why the products are already available through the Newark and Farnell Element14 channels. And why they have the same backer edition logo.

The logo has todo that we process the casings in batches. The additional costs to have a separate batch was significant so this was the solution. Know it would have been ideal to have this only for the backers. This will only be for this batch. Next batches will not have this logo.

The situation we will only sent out the first KS batch Monday and you can already order it is not ideal and breaks a backer perk of having the product the first. Allthough it is just a few days we understand this is a bit of a unwritten rule. We tried to comply but logistically we could not do it the other way. The reason you do a Kickstarter is because you want a product on the market and contributing to that gives you a reward, the product. We are super happy we now have same day delivery in the US and next day delivery in the EU of the gateway.


#222

I am sorry Wienke I must disagree on the last part of your answer.

The reason why I participate in a Kickstarter is because I see a product which is not yet on the market and which I would like to own myself. By participating I enable the company to grow its order-portfolio to a point where the volume is enough to guarantee their estimated cost of production. As a reward I get the product as an early adopter and at a lower price. After that (second production run) the product is available in shops and can be bought by “the general public” which… did not participate in the risc of losing their money when the company does not deliver.

That is not a unwritten rule, that is normal procedure (and in most of the cases advertised as such).

I (and others I know) feel dissapointment because we HAVE invested in TTN, have supported TTN in various ways but as a reward “get to ride at the back of the bus” with the excuse “aren’t you happy we got the product to market?”… yes, we are… but now the people who did NOT invest from the getgo (kickstarter) and did not risc anything get the reward… instead of the loyal investors who waited for a very long time, listened to all the promises along the way (I will not paint pictures here) but still stayed on board.

Your backers and community are a very valuable asset (maybe even the most valuable. there are many good examples… look at Esspresif) and should be treated accordingly… THEY are your army of Ambassadors (ten Wienkes flying around the World cannnot match that)

(doing an advertisement that there is super fast day delivery to people who did not support your kickstarter-campagne but just now bought the product… while the loyal backers still have to wait… can you imagine that it feels a bit like extra salt in the wound?)

Just my 2 cents.


(Kiwiclan) #223

I’m glad I didn’t buy a TTN gateway but made my own, likely because I’m too impatient. I can imagine that if I had bought a backer gateway that I would have a bad taste in my mouth a little. In the meantime there are several other lorawan gateways on the market so to me the most valuable achievement was the creation of the free things network infrastructure itself. That’s a hell of an achievement and will have lasting impact. Maybe the promise of building the gateway was also necessary to create the level of motivation needed by the team to build the things network, I don’t know, in any case the network has been built and it’s here for good now. I imagine that financial decisions were a large factor in why the mistakes were made in the delivery that resulted in the dissatisfaction.

Now that the gateway is finally here, likely there will come a time when the financial situation is healthier, maybe at such a time the things network could still think of a way to compensate or reward the backers in some way? Just a suggestion, they did back the production of the gateway and they are left with a bitter taste in their mouths. It would be nice if that emotion could be reversed some how. Food for thought in any case. It would be a shame to loose that goodwill forever. Maybe it’s recoverable? If not immediately, then sometime.


(Arjan) #224

Very true for “regular” products I’d say. (And I think it would have been true for TTN as well, if there would have been no problems.)

But for TTN, I’ve first of all invested in the network/community. I don’t even care about owning my own gateway if others would already be available in my neighbourhood. I think the Kickstarter’s title describes it best: The Things Network community is on a mission to crowdsource a global open and independent Internet Of Things network.

Shame on you :wink:

I really wonder if those would have existed if not for TTN. (And how many of the other gateways are certified.)

Even more, without that, any gateway is only usable for small private projects without any network coordination, or would need to be connected to a commercial provider.

Also, I think The Things Industries and the TTN community are to be praised for all the LoRaWAN lessons learned, publicly. All of us now know a lot more about its limitations (triangulation, downlinks, range) which commercial parties nevertheless keep including in their sales pitches. And anyone can read about that in the open forum, wiki, documentation and code, which would not have existed if not for TTN. And I’ve been able to use all that before getting any TTN hardware delivered.

In all, I’m still quite happy with the delayed results. :tada:

(Also, I very much hope The Things Industries will make some serious money, so they can keep the community infrastructure running.)


#225

Why is TTN not a “regular” product? I see people evangelise about “pet-trackers” and other products that will “change the world” on KS every day…
Most of the products on Kickstarter share the same properties and the financial risc for the backers is a reality since only a small percentage of the KS-projects deliver… (and lets be honest… the last year confidence took a punch… it did not look good for the people who invested in this project… hence the word “vaporware” in the titel of this thread)

I really wonder what would have existed at all if the kickstarter-campagne would have failed misserably…
If not for seeding-capital… the backers gave a commitment… a signal they believed in the idea!
I can give you lots of examples of projects which are super-cool (IoT-related and even Lora-products) that did not achieve their target on KS, some went on… some are still alive… but without the boost they have to put in a lot of money and a lot more effort (see Light Energy by TWTG, etc.)

Spoken like a true optimist… you make it sound like the delay is a good thing… would you rather have it delivered end 2018 so you can even acquire more knowledge in the meantime??.. probably not :wink:

It is not impossible that you would have gotten the insights you have now if you would have put all your energy into a “commercial-vendor-network”… to me… these insights and kowledge are mostly the achievement of the community working together sharing knowledge… some people put in SERIOUS time and effort to help other members and answer lots of questions without any compensation :clap::clap::clap:… am i not right?

Do not get me wrong… I am not bashing TTN… I am just trying to get my point across that the community is the biggest value within TTN. Without the people carrying the ideas of Wienke and Johan it would have cost a very large sum (see investment by the commercial vendors) to get to the point where TTN is now. I am certainly not ungratefull for the energy and effort put into this project by forementioned persons but… it is not very elegant to just react with “so you took financial risc and you had to wait a long time and were treated less than average but… we wil get there in the end (-I have not seen my product yet-)… so be happy, rejoice and… by the way… people who order today can have their gateway the same day… while you as a backer are still waiting”

Being thoughtfull and appreciative towards the people that contributed to the cause does not have cost much (in this case nothing even… just a few days of delay for the new customers)… but goes a long way (imagine how proud and gratefull the first 100 backers would have reacted if they got the product first -or even the first 10 out of the hands of Wienke himself :cake::champagne:… a picture with big contrast to todays reality-)


#226

Arjan, I assume you live in an area with many existing gateways? If so, I’m not surprised you have an “I’m alright Jack” attitude. After all, you are freely admitting that you enjoy the coverage benefits?

However, other people in Europe are still waiting for decent coverage, and for me, your attitude of “I don’t care about the gateways” isn’t wise - it is evidence to others of someone having to mitigate a serious breach of trust and faith in the TTN organisation.

Remember - that it is trust that upholds TTN - without it, TTN is doomed.

So, I want to believe that TTN will send the gateways in the end. simply because it is in their interest to make sure they do (coverage).
If they don’t, I and the vast majority would never trust TTN ever again unless the current leadership are replaced. I’m hoping that this isn’t necessary of course. :slight_smile:


(Arjan) #227

Because, for me, the gateway is part of a network. Getting “my own” gateway in return for that investment has no value to me whatsoever. How would Kickstarter backers benefit from holding back parts of that network until all backers got their hardware first? Why would I even care for getting my hardware earlier or with some specific casing if it is just part of a bigger thing? “You are the network. Let’s build this thing together.”

…which, for me, was out of line; just look at the proof of existence in the very first reply on this thread. Yes, we’ve been waiting a lot, and are still waiting. No, I’ve not doubted that the team was trying to get it done, and I kept hoping they would succeed before money ran out.

Very true. I still believe in the idea. But: so…?

No, you’re right, that is not a good thing. I just wanted to say that I already got value for my investment in the network/community, despite the hardware being delayed.

True, though I have very different experiences with commercial providers, where the only way to communicate is by opening private support tickets, or be getting access to some private forum. A lot of the knowledge I got is about problems I did not run into myself, or I ran into myself at a later time for which I could then use that knowledge.

Very much agreed. I’m still a happy member :slight_smile:

What makes you think that? Apart from the one’s I’ve connected myself (one being a Kerlink of the City of Haarlem that used to be connected to Loriot instead), I can reach zero gateways from my home.

That’s not what I intended to say: “I’ve first of all invested in the network/community. I don’t even care about owning my own gateway if others would already be available in my neighbourhood.”

Wow, why would you still doubt they will be delivered, soon? Also, the note about the coverage makes this sounds like you think The Things Industries is only caring for their own business? :-1: I think they care for the TTN community they have started: that’s you and me and everyone here.


(Tim Everitt) #235

After a whole working life (I’m 60 now) in electronics and telecom for the offshore oil and gas industry I’m deeply saddened by some of the comments that I’ve read on this topic. I have seen a lot of success and some failure in my working life. Risks were understood and the failures were always handled with good manners even when they were big enough to go to courts of arbitration. Any money paid to a KS project should immediately be written off and if anything at all comes back from the project it should be considered as a bonus. The TTN team were, I suspect, naive and inexperienced regarding hardware products and - as every VC knows - the outcome of a project is a function of the management team. The reality is that TTN has delivered two superb outcomes; a LoRaWAN core / network service that is open and free to use, and this community and this forum and the public knowledge that it now contains. Grow up, move on, celebrate the success and learn from the failure. Life is too short to get tangled up over a few euros.


#236

I entirely agree on this, but I also want to emphasize that it’s about time the communication gets more professional. It seems like certain mistakes are made over and over again, followed by a silence and after an even longer silence something like ‘well, eh, yeah, right, could indeed have been better’.

Think about that backer edition stamp. Everyone could have predicted using it for normal sales would have made people pretty upset. It is also clear to most people that plastic castings are expensive, so with some explanation it would be understandable by the majority. This is not something that should be handled by damage control because it could easily have been predicted… The same goes for the mess with the tracking numbers. Just be clear that they are not sent yet and don’t let people guess in this topic who might have received a number.


#237

I agree with you, If I had paid into a KS project, I would accept that as valid.
However, it doesn’t apply to those that mitigated that risk by paying extra through the TTN shop (not kickstarter).
At the moment the gateways are still for sale. Are you saying that people should pay for these gateways and immediately accept that they won’t get one?
How stupid would that be when you can buy a gateway elsewhere without that risk e.g. Farnell ? :slight_smile:


#238

I totally agree with you on that part. On the other hand there are some financial trade offs we need to do. We are well aware of the fact the goodwill is hurt by this. We are also aware we need to watch what we do financially as we cannot keep giving stuff away for free if we want to become sustainable. E.g. hosting, code, design, etc.

Hope it helps if I tell you we do not just make these decisions overnight and we are well aware the impact it has. But running such an organisation forces you to make choices. And in this case we made this one.

Love to hear from you what you and us can do to see if we can win back some of this goodwill.

Thanks for your constructive feedback. This helps a lot.


#239

Agree with the unprofessional part. We solve this by making sure we do not ever need to do any distribution again. This does not fit a small organisation. It is a compliment we are benchmarked with regard to this performance with what you are used to by professional distributors, but that is what we are not. It will not really help you but if all goes well. This batch is the last batch we will distribute ourselves.


#240

Thanks, that is really good to hear.


#241

At ThingsCon I did an interview on stage where I was asked about the process.

This really only covers just a few small bit of all the drama we went through last two years. But I think it gives a nice overview.


(Kiwiclan) #242

I didn’t mean it to come over that way. What I meant was that I was glade to be able to use the things network earlier. I’ve installed 2x homemade gateways, I will be installing more but the next one’s will be ttn gateways.


(Kiwiclan) #243

Sorry, could get the quote included, I meant to quote the “Shame on you” comment for not buying a ttn gateway.